Kyle Fletcher: Hello and welcome to the first of three episodes titled lessons from rejections. Today we are joined by Rachel Scherr, an assistant research scientist at UC Davis in the Department of Nutrition, and the director of the UC Davis Centre for Nutrition in Schools. Thank you for joining us Rachel. To start, can you tell us a little about yourself?
Rachel Scherr: I'm an assistant research scientist in the Department of Nutrition. I've been at UC Davis in many capacities since 2005. So, for 15 years, I was a graduate student, postdoc assistant project scientists now assistant research scientist.
KF: Great. Today, Rachel is going to share a story about rejections from job applications. Rachel, over to you.
RS: So, I'm going to speak about a rejection that I had about four years ago. I applied for a position in my department, which I knew was a long shot for a hard money faculty position and I knew I was going in, I was like, out of the six candidates they were interviewing probably their sixth choice brought in maybe because of obligation because they didn't want to have to make eye contact with me in the hallways if they didn't. And I think coming out of the interview, I think I finished in the top three, from, you know, rumblings and whisperings in the department. It was an interesting position to be in, because I knew that there was almost no chance I was going to get this position offered to me, but I still, it was interviewing amongst all my colleagues, who I would then have to go back to work with on Monday morning. And so that was sort of an interesting experience. I actually think overall, it was a really good thing for my career, because a lot of people in my department who had known me mostly just as someone who had been a student in the graduate group and a face that they'd seen around the building for, you know, 10 years at that point. They learned what kind of research I was doing and had a little bit more respect for what I was doing and so I think ultimately not getting that position only helped my career at the time. You know, it sucks to not get the job, of course, it always does. But I was able to sort of turn it into an overall positive experience.
KF: Can you tell us a bit more about your feelings and emotions after the interview?
RS: I felt like I had had a good interview and that it had gone well. But I also felt pretty confident I still wasn't going to be their choice. But I felt like I had shown that I was a contender for it. I mean, I cried, of course, like, I was sad, I didn't get the job. I'm not gonna be like a robot and say, you know, "oh, I knew I wasn't gonna get it, so I wasn't upset that I didn't"! Of course not. I'm a human. It was a bummer. But I knew I had to go back to work. I had a job to do. I had students that I worked with. So yeah, I mean, you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on to the next.
KF: That sounds very tough. Were you ever tempted to leave academia?
RS: Yes. Easy answer. Yes. I'm tempted to leave every day. At the time, I had grants going, I had projects going, like I said, I had students. I had a graduate student who was just about to start with me. They just accepted. So, like, for me, it was no question if I was going to stay because I had this responsibility. I had made this commitment to students. You know, being soft money faculty, any student I've ever taken has been with the caveat that if money dries up or something happens, I will have to leave and you will have to find another major professor. But of course, that's not what you want to do. So, for me, there wasn't really a question at that point. I figured there'd be another opportunity down the line. That said, academia is a hustle and it's hard and being soft money adds to that intensely.
KF: Can you clarify what you mean by being soft money faculty?
RS: Sure. So, my money is all grant funded that I find myself, so I write grants that support my salary. Since 2011, I've been soft money and I've been successful at funds to cover my salary and the salary of my staff and students.
KF: Thanks for the clarification. Back to your story. Was there anyone you look to for advice during that period?
RS: I mean, first and foremost, my mentor who had not yet retired when I went through this interview process, has since retired and is still like my person I go to every day when things get tough. She has and always will be amazing at that. I think in academia, it's really important to have that person. You know, we have an interesting relationship in where I would consider her family and not everyone necessarily has that relationship with their mentor, but somebody that you can actually have that conversation with is really critical. I actually switched labs when I was a grad student, so my original mentor also has been really instrumental in sort of helping me navigate the difficulties of, what sometimes is a really successful career and sometimes it's not. I feel like I'm very lucky in that respect. He went through something similar in the same department, actually, 30 years before that. He interviewed for a position as a longshot was not offered the position and had to go through that all over again. You know, hearing sort of that from somebody who's had a very successful career, who has a 63-page CV, is sometimes really comforting. You're not alone. You know, other people have gone through this too.
KF: So, mentorship is very important then?
RS: It's just good to have that a person that you can have that conversation with. And so, getting that is the advice I give any student I work with. I focus on the undergrads a lot because they're in positions where as undergrads, sometimes finding mentorship can be overwhelming at a university as large as UC Davis. And so, you know, I always tell them to find someone that you feel comfortable with whose office you can stop into, who can be a sounding board for you, who you can email once you graduate. It doesn't have to be a professor, it can be a graduate student, it can be a peer. So just find mentorship wherever you can.
KF: Thanks. I think that's really important advice. Can I ask do you keep track of your rejections?
RS: Officially? To some degree I actually do because the type of soft money position I'm in I have to show that I'm applying for grants. That's probably the main thing I keep track of. Sometimes with papers, it's fun to keep track. We had a paper that it took 10 submissions to get published, you know, when you finally get the acceptance to be like, "Oh my god, after 10 it finally has been accepted!" That's kind of fun. But the job stuff, I don't know. I've applied for a lot of jobs over the years. Some seriously some not so seriously. I don't know that I keep track of those nearly as much.
KF: How much do you talk about rejection with your colleagues and peers?
RS: I think I could talk about rejections with anyone who I wanted to. I don't know that sometimes, I just don't think too. I'm sure it would be valuable. I've sought out some outside help, because there are people who've been really successful being funded by certain agencies. And so to get their insight as to what has made them successful has been helpful. Just even seeing how sometimes people format their grant narrative can be really enlightening, you know?
I'm a big proponent of publishing when your study didn't really work, because someone out there is gonna have a similar idea and going to maybe attempt to do something really similarly, and if it doesn't work, it's valuable to know that. So it kinda reminds me of that like being okay to talk about it, because if you sort of hide from it, then there isn't really an opportunity for improvement.
KF: So, from what you've learned, is there anything you wish you could tell your younger self?
RS: Keep trying to figure it out! I made a lot of decisions early on and probably will continue to do so, I just don't have the ability to have hindsight yet. That led me down a path where I was really unhappy with things, you know, I changed majors in college, they changed labs in grad school. And I think there's this expectation that you're supposed to know what you want to do from a young age here, for some reason. I talked to graduating seniors that I teach, and they're all super panicked. And so I think there's this fear of having to know what you want. And I think that the answer is actually that, like, no decision you ever make is really permanent. And everything you do you learn more about yourself. So for me, all those sort of, "wrong decisions" taught me. Like I hate being at the bench, I am not a bench scientist and it took me three years of doing that to realize that is not my path, but now I know it and so I can move on to something else. So I think the only thing I would tell my younger self is like, keep trying to figure it out, and be okay with making the wrong decisions. It feels like the end of the world when you have to make that decision to switch things up and I think just knowing that it actually wasn't would have been beneficial. Trust the instinct if things are going well or not well.
KF: Great, thank you very much. Do you have any comments that you would like to close with?
RS: I think in academia, for most of us, rejection is a big, huge part of the job. It's you get more rejection than you get acceptance, you know, manuscript of grants of jobs. I think having the grit to stick with it is important and if you don't, then you know, there's nothing wrong with this not being the right match. Because if you don't like rejection, this is not the right field. Academia is hard and scary, but it's also awesome. And as long as the good outweighs the bad most of the time, even if it's just a tiny, tiny bit, (then) I think you're doing it right. So keep with it!
KF: Thank you very much, Rachel, for your time and sharing your stories.
Dr. Rachel Scherr is an Assistant Researcher at the University of California, Davis and the Director of the UC Davis Center for Nutrition in Schools. She obtained her Ph.D. in Nutritional Biology from UC Davis and currently focuses her research on nutrition education and promotion in school-aged children. You can read more about Rachel's research on her
UC Davis Staff webpage.